12/3/09 4:01 AM -
Darth Hater on the Four Force Users 
by Dover
, posted December 3rd, 2009 at 4:01 AM
Arguably the greatest rift in the Star Wars: The Old Republic community came from the possibility, now reality, of four of the eight classes as force users. This discussion spawned shortly after the Sith Warrior was released and described as a melee focused class, and only grew in intensity. Having nearly a month to think about this design choice, we felt it was important to weigh in with our opinion.
 
What it Means for RPGs


As pen and paper role-playing games moved into the realm of video games, designers realized that some alterations needed to be made for the sake of simplicity. When the game existed in the imagination of the user, a broad term such as "Wizard" could be used to cover any number of skills, spells and abilities. However, as each skill set needed to be programmed and visually realized, the more complex archetypes eventually splintered into different groups. Wizards became Mages, Warlocks, Necromancers and Pyromancers; Warriors splintered into Fighters, Barbarians, and Monks. Over time, the community learned to accept the idea that even though they are all intrinsically the same, they could still be considered distinct and separate classes.

BioWare and LucasArts appear to be betting that they can inspire the same change in the public perception of force users. Where we previously grouped Jedi as just Jedi, and Sith as Sith, they would have us break specializations into fully distinct classes. When using the fantasy archetypes as an analog it isn't that hard to see their vision. They took steps towards this goal in KOTOR by separating the Jedi into three classes, and are continuing this trend by creating four force-using specialists.

In this regard, we would have to agree with the developers. Having two classes, both of which have access to every possible force power, would almost certainly mean failure in an RPG community. Either the selection of force powers would be limited dramatically, leading to Jedi and Sith players bemoaning the lack of depth, or the selection would be so great that all non-force classes would feel left out and inferior; the latter we already saw in action.

What it Means for PVP


One of the greatest worries in the early TOR community was how to make Jedi and Sith balanced in a game with non-force using counterparts. This is doubly important in a game that includes any form of player versus player combat. It appears that the developers' answer to this problem is to force (no pun intended) Jedi and Sith players into distinct roles with recognizable skill sets.

On a purely mechanical level, we would have to agree with this point as well. Without this distinction, a player wielding a lightsaber could have any specialization and his opponent would not know how to handle the situation until the battle was over. A Trooper is a Trooper, and an Imperial Agent is an Imperial Agent. But a Jedi, with any number of skill tree options, could be anything. By placing different force users into recognizable archetypes, we believe it evens the playing field by allowing non-force users to develop appropriate tactics for each.

What it Means for Story


Another issue in this debate focuses around the possible story arcs for four force users. The concern being whether or not their stories can be as unique and distinct as those seen with the other classes. For example, the life of a Smuggler varies greatly from the life of a Trooper. We know the individual narratives will be high quality and engaging, this is BioWare after all, but how different and special can the stories be between a Sith Warrior and a Sith Inquisitor?

On this point, we will have to file ourselves as mildly worried. The life of a Jedi Knight, who goes through the trials to destroy things with a lightsaber, seems far too similar to a Jedi Consular, who goes through the trials to destroy things with the force. While it is true that you could take two law enforcement officers, ask them their life story, and get completely different tales; would they be distinct enough to warrant two archetypes? We have not yet seen enough, and cannot confidently say we are convinced.

What it Means for MMOs


For players who choose to play a Jedi or Sith, having four force users means they have a much larger set of options for being who they want to be. If we imagine that a Trooper has 20 skills and a Smuggler has 20 skills, then a single Jedi class would also have 20 skills. This means that splitting force users into two archetypes per faction basically allows for 80 skills to be available for anyone looking to play a force user, thus allowing them to find the precise set that suits their desired style.

We understand this choice. Community polls are roughly estimating 60% of the pre-launch player base wants to roll a force user, and splitting the field does allow this group to find what they want. However, we feel this could be a squandered opportunity to add a fresh or unique new skill set to the game. In the end, while the force abilities are different, they are fairly similar to each other. A fully-realized fourth class could have been as unique and distinct as the Imperial Agent is to the Bounty Hunter.

The Final Verdict

We are taking a "Cautiously Optimistic" view on the four force users. During the time we've had to consider this decision, many worries have subsided and a couple new ones have emerged, but the reasoning behind this choice is starting to shine through. We have confidence in the developers and are looking forward to seeing how this design works in the live product.

20 Comments
Comment by Wlad made on December 12th, 2009 at 9:29am
I really like the article, only got me more excited about the upcoming game, and for once, the people that have posted replies sound like intelligent individuals that only fueled my excitement even more. I am a little worried about PVP, since as far as I know, bounty hunters are one of the few who can go "mano a mano" with a JEDI. I mean, troopers are taken out by the handful when matched against a JEDI. But I gotta admit, maybe I am missing extra pointers from the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

Now, I gotta say I am not too worried about having 4 Force user clases, and this is why (it's an opinion I could be wrong!): For those of us who are familiar with SWG, the game started without the option to play as a JEDI, it had to be "discovered", of course it eventually was made available and for hardcore fans the fun was ruined since the timeline didnt allow for so many JEDI or Sith to exist, let alone walk around the city.

I believe that most people will want to play force sensitive characters when the game first comes out, so they are taking advantage of that, so instead of denying us from playing as JEDI or Sith (a la SWG), we can start from the moment we first install the game. Nevertheless, eventually Bioware will add more no force user classes with the next expansions, allowing players to have had their share of playtime with force user classes gotten out of the way. I am sure Bioware isn't building this game with thoughts of failure but success, therefore I wouldn't be surprised if they already have ideas for upcoming expansion in the work. So that's my opinion, give us JEDI and Sith from the getgo (unlike SWG) so we can get it out of the system, then as the game develops surprise us with new non force user classes later on. =)
 
Comment by thehowlerr made on December 8th, 2009 at 4:03pm
Very good article.

From my perspective, I am loosely associating the Force to Magic in other MMO. In WoW, there are many types of users of magic. Some use it heavily (Mage, Warlock), some use it lightly (Paladin), some not at all (Fighter). I think the TOR designers are trying to use the same type of classification. The more a class will use the force, the more restriction it will need to have: lighter armor, weapon restriction, lesser fighting skills, etc. The description of the Consular seems to indicate this is the way they will go.

The main question remains how will they limit the skills of a Jedi Knight. In WoW, the Paladin can fight well, but it is NOT the best fighter in the game. So following the same logic, the Trooper should be the best fighter in the game, but I don't think this would fly with the players. I think they will need to position the Trooper more like a Hunter in WoW, a specialized range fighter with some special technology help. The Bounty Hunter's flying ability is a good example. It is a bit difficult for a Jedi Knight to slice you to pieces with fancy saber moves if he can only throw his saber at you (which, if designed properly, should do less damage than the Bounty Hunter's Blaster).

My two cents.
 
Comment by Deidare made on December 7th, 2009 at 7:57pm
First off, I like to complement the author or authors of this article, nicely down, really some outstanding stuff you guys came up with. Heres what I have to say:

What it means for RPGs- I completely agree. If you compare these to any MMO you'll see that their no different. Take WoW for example (because we all know and love it) Warrior and paladin are essentially the same thing. Both melee, heavy armor, one just uses light powers, the other his rage. Or how about mage and warlock, both wear cloth, both cast spells. Ones just dark and the other seek intelligence and justice (so to speak).

What it means for PvP: I think the addition for four force user classes won’t affect PvP majorly as in one side being OP opposing to the other, or that force user will wipe the floor with other classes. After reading more news it’s become clear that that wouldn't be an error.

What it means for story: I believe stories anything you make it, whether it goes with lore or not. So I think you could make you Jedi knight, or SI anything lore you'd want, meaning they'd all be different from one another.

What it means for MMOs: I think there’s nothing I could say here, you pretty well covered exactly what I thought. The fact that Jedi/ Sith would have ended up with so many abilities if they hadn't made 4 does make sense.

In the end I'm fine with the 4 force users, the only thing I’m asking for is for 1 more class on each side that’s none force. That'd be nice, but it probably wouldn’t happen until the next expansion. Heck if they showed us two more classes before the games release that'd be awesome, a guy can dream right.
 
Comment by Jaramukhti made on December 7th, 2009 at 5:19pm
I loved this article, and agreed with many of the points addressed and concerns raised, yet the one that I disagreed with had to do with the concern that a Sith Inquisitor storyline may not be much different from a Sith Warrior.

I, of course, cannot say anything specifically about the storyline differences (the game is still in development, of course) but as an avid reader and a writer, I will say that there is such a massive difference between political intrigue and frontline warfare - and therefore, I would expect there to be just as drastic a difference between stories dealing with both sides of the coin.

A Sith Warrior, for example, may have storyline quests that call for him to take a more active role in battlefield scenarios, such as to capture an enemy installation and kill an enemy general while bulldozing through his minions. On the other side, an Inquisitor might be asked to use their savvy to convince an NPC to halt an attack, or incite a war that can work toward your own personal goals. Maybe he is asked to kill an enemy general, as well, but lacking a Sith Warrior's brute strength, must go about it in a decidedly more tactical fashion.

This does not even take into account the out-of-combat storylines that will be available. If Palpatine is the archetype for the Sith Inquisitor, then we have already seen a brilliant example of how deep and complex an Inquisitor can be when fully realized.

I imagine an Inquisitor will be every bit as colorful as the Warrior, only tinged more with political intrigue. While Sith Warriors like Darth Vader would likely be hated because they directly caused the destruction and deaths of many, an Inquisitor like Palpatine - who was every bit as ruthless, and more - would be reviled because he masterminded the scheme that led to the destruction.

I look at Darth Vader and Palpatine and I couldn't imagine two storylines that were more different; I expect more of the same from Star Wars: The Old Republic.
 
Comment by /AFK – Expansion Ma made on December 6th, 2009 at 9:12am
[...] Darth Hater re: TOR [...]
 
Comment by Rackham made on December 4th, 2009 at 2:31pm
"Another issue in this debate focuses around the possible story arcs for four force users. The concern being whether or not their stories can be as unique and distinct as those seen with the other classes."

When I heard about the last two classes, I won't deny I was shocked, but after reading Bioware's reasoning it made sense. We know for a fact that once SWTOR rolls out, I'd wager 80% of the players will want to roll a jedi/sith. Why not stem the flood of lightsaber-wielding character running around by offering some variety?

As for the storyline concerns you mentioned above, I still think it will fit and be different enough. Do we know whether or not the two jedi or sith start in the same area? I remember reading in the Darth Bane series that there were actually several academies for training Sith - the one of Korriban being the "Sith Lord" specialty.
 
Comment by Deewe made on December 4th, 2009 at 12:12pm
"his opponent would not know how to handle the situation until the battle was over"

So what?

Do you mean for PvP to be interesting you need to know how to win before the combat even begins? I thought PvP should be challenging.

The stress and so the fun comes with surprises.
 
Comment by Sami made on December 4th, 2009 at 11:58am
The single biggest argument against something such as a droid engineer class is that Bioware is aiming to make this an epic heroic experience. It might be fun and interesting to design droids or weapons, and there were certainly people who had fun specializing as cantina dancers in SW Galaxies, but those classes don't lend themselves to heroic story lines. There is nothing to suggest that, for example, a bounty hunter or a smuggler couldn't be a gear head and specialize in using droids to accomplish tasks. There is even precedent in the movies for it and those sorts of skills were in KOTOR. The developers have even hinted that some of those experiences will be available, at least with companions. The style of play and abilities varied significantly with the different classes in KOTOR. It seems only natural to take the two extremes and develop them into fully separate classes for SWTOR.

Besides, Bioware hasn't ruled out introducing additional classes later. It seems that Bioware has tried to match the basic play styles for RPG's- stealth vs. ranged, melee vs. firearms, tactical vs. hack and slash- and match them with characters from the Star Wars cannon. They have emphasized over and over the ability to customize within each character class and use whatever style a player wishes. If they have a huge demand for a certain type of gaming experience that is missing after launch, I suspect they will do their best to provide it.
 
Comment by BrianHA made on December 4th, 2009 at 8:14am
must say this dont bode well- ive always imagined starwars universes both before after the "empire" to be ranged combat- SWG was ruined by the fact that all close combat classes would simply own the ranged by a mile. im afraid the xact same thing will be the prime issue here. in the end- why on earth didnt the empire or republic hand out shovels to all their troops so they could fight face to face - as it seems like the only thing that actually works. they should have built the DS with a gigantic lightsaberhand - instead of the planetkilling laserbeam. im looking soo much forward to this game- but all these close combat classes simply gives me nothing but another fantasy game- in the future:(
 
Comment by Alex made on December 4th, 2009 at 2:57am
I would compare the two force classes per side to the military, instead of the police force. Officers and enlisted. An Officer recieves different training, and leads a completely different life than an enlisted man. I would consider the Sith Warrior to be the enlisted force user, who uses brute force and martial skill, and lives a purely Hands on life experience in the game, whereas an inquisitor (I forgot to mention Knight and Consular counterparts, but of course them respectively) Is more like the officer, using tactics and manipulating from the back of the action, Even the acrobatic melee sub version would still depend on the Sith warriors to hold the line while he tactically strikes at oppurtune moments.

If you talk to an officer and an enlisted man and ask about their life stories, they would be completely different enough to create two distinct archetypes, much like the two distinct force users. Now this might make people worried and go "Well if the inquisitor is the officer, and the Warrior is the enlisted, How will we as warriors become sith lords, or how will we gain the rank of master for jedi respectively" I really wouldnt worry about that.
 
Comment by Chris made on December 3rd, 2009 at 4:14pm
"If we imagine that a Trooper has 20 skills and a Smuggler has 20 skills, then a single Jedi class would also have 20 skills. This means that splitting force users into two archetypes per faction basically allows for 80 skills to be available for anyone looking to play a force user, thus allowing them to find the precise set that suits their desired style."

You're mixing numbers there between archetype and class. Yes, splitting force users into two archetypes per faction basically allows for 80 skills, but not splitting them allows for 40 rather than the 20 implied int he previous sentience.

As a previous 2 force user supporter, I would have rather had, if you wanted 40 skills for force users per side, then give 40 skills to Jedi, 40 to Smuggler, 40 to Trooper, ext. More work but more variability.

I disagree with your PVP analysis simply because the armor the jedi character is wearing should be a big clue to what kind they are. If they approach you or stay at a distance should also clue you in. If that's not enough, they could have simply put a title on the end of the class name for each player Jedi Knight (Consular), Jedi Knight (Guardian), Smuggler (Scoundrel). You're not entirely sure in other MMO's what spec a given class is already and some times that can make a big difference. As of now, you spot a smuggler, you're not sure if you have to worry about them dpsing or suddenly stealthiness on you.

Things seem horribly confused right now

The class naming. Knight and Warrior should be changed, it seems they're setting up a Guardian/Sentinel split in Knight and Marauders/Assassin split in Warrior but it still doesn't mesh with Consular and Inquisitor.

The Consular has the force pull and The Guardian has the force Push? Does this seem backwards to anyone else? Why point at Obiwan as a basis for Consular? He's a Guardian.

It seems strange the Inquisitor character shown has a double bladed light saber that was only ever seen in the movies wielded by Darth Maul who I thought was a clear Warrior. Then they mention Dooku as a pattern for Inquisitor, but Dooku was a Jedi Guardian before becoming a Sith which seems like it would fit him into Warrior (Marauder).

In short, the whole split they decided to do is going to confuse casual fans, the names are going to annoy lore heavy fans, and it seems they're tying themselves in knots to give powers and movie icons to them.
 
Comment by CrashDuce made on December 3rd, 2009 at 11:31am
I think the story concerns are spot on...Xavier example of a diplomatic missions IMO is more endgame story. Our story starts at level 1...how much different can it be when we are working our way up the ranks. I would guess I wouldn't be sent to negociate a planet diplomatic issues in a level one quest
 
Comment by Xavier made on December 3rd, 2009 at 11:06am
For a guy that was on the 2 force user side of the arguement, I'm actually going to disagree with you on story. I think that is the easiest part to make unique. The Jedi Knights are the front line defenders of the Republic fighting side by side with Troopers on worlds like Balmorra. Their story could revolve around those front line combat and how you create bonds with those you fight with. Even if you're not supposed to as a Jedi. When those people die, as people will in war, how does the Jedi handle it. Will he rise above and be a beacon of hope and a shining example of leadership on the battlefield? Or, will he give into despair and the pain of loosing close friends? Will his pain turn to hatred and will he lash out in revenge at the Sith, giving in to the darkside and becoming the very thing he was sworn to protect people from?

The Consular, as the name implies could be the more "diplomatic" Jedi. Dealing in political intrigue, weather it be suring up the shaky relations between the Jedi Order and the Republic Senate or, ferreting out traitors within the Senate. He could also be dispatched to border worlds thinking of secceding from the Republic to the Empire to negotiate a settlement. Only to find the Empire has beaten him to the punch. Think the very first Clone Wars episode with Yoda trying to negotiate with the Toyadarian King, only to have a wrench thrown in the works by Asajj Ventress showing up.

No, my concerns around having 4 force users were simply about wanting two more non-Jedi/non-Sith classes. If I can come up with those vastly different storylines so quickly, Imagine what BioWare's team of writers can do. The Story is the least of my concerns about these classes. My concerns by the way, like Dover and Sado's are lessened after all of the new info, but still there. I agree with the "cautiously optimistic" appraisal.
 
Comment by Xavier made on December 3rd, 2009 at 11:12am
I apologize for the awful spelling and grammar of my previous post. I'm trying to type this stuff in while at work and do not have time to properly proof read it. That was really bad.
 
Comment by DA made on December 3rd, 2009 at 8:33am
obviously whoever wrote this had a diplomat/engineer/mandalorian/droid assasin in his mind for the next two classes.
 
Comment by Team made on December 3rd, 2009 at 5:47am
i was against four force users at first but after the german article was deciphered i understood why they did it
 
Comment by Lugano made on December 3rd, 2009 at 5:01am
I have to agree with most of your points. I, personally, was never really opposed to having 4 force user classes. I think that the strongest point you made is the PVP arguement. To keep balance in PVP you need to have the ability to identify what type abilities your enemy has.

I'm just more excited now to keep getting additional information on the specific abilities of the classes. We got a little taste in your SI and JC posts, but I would like to see what trees they split off into and what other abilties they will have.
 
Comment by Fedaykin made on December 3rd, 2009 at 4:49am
Now this is a post. I seriously couldn't agree more. I like the same points you guys like and share the same concerns.
 
Comment by JimtheJedi made on December 3rd, 2009 at 4:08am
Looks wonderful!
 
Comment by FallunLight made on December 3rd, 2009 at 4:05am
First!