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1/27/10 9:24 PM -
Speculation: Getting to The Core of a Class 
by emlaeh
, posted January 27th, 2010 at 9:24 PM
Story has to drive choice, and choice has to drive action. - BioWare's Dallas Dickinson to Gamasutra

In a previous article, we presented a chart showing the depth of customization players might expect after making the path choice in Star Wars: The Old Republic. BioWare's RPG signature usually includes foreshadowing an important decision with prior experiences and choices made during one's personal story, so the major decision of path choice shouldn't result in a surprise. Although we expressed our opinion of the depth and variety of customization that should exist after making this permanent decision, we didn't detail how we suspect you will initially acquire and progressively improve skills in what we call the "core class." Therefore, we here at Darth Hater decided to elaborate on our prior class combat speculations and delve deeper into what we feel "core class" really means.
 
Many MMOs contain systems of personal progression in the form of talent trees that you can immediately put talent points into as you level to strengthen or differentiate your character. In the early stages of character development, you typically know little about your class' combat and have few abilities at your disposal, so you might make a few mistakes allocating these talent points. You may also prefer a particular spec for leveling, but then maybe opt for a completely different one at endgame. While single player RPGs address this issue with a "save button," traditional MMOs typically give you a method of altering your point allocation. However, these "respecs" have a tendency to reduce -- and sometimes trivialize -- the impact, continuity, and the importance of personal choice.

Since we observed BioWare's consistent message of Story intertwined with pillars of Combat, Progression, and Exploration, we think Star Wars: The Old Republic will tactically avoid this common MMO problem by moving away from traditional leveling systems. Therefore, we contend the traditional talent tree system will not exist for the core class, as it is too impersonal and lacks continuity in character development. Instead, we see BioWare presenting you with story-driven choices in early levels to acquire and improve abilities using more heroic methods. This sets the stage for you to gradually learn about and customize your combat abilities in a personal manner, and you are sufficiently educated at a point in your class story to choose the path that compliments your play style of damage or group support.

In 2008, BioWare's Rich Vogel told Massively:

Our leveling system... it is a leveling system. There are experience points. There are some innovations we're doing, but we can't really get into them. Companion characters are going to be a big element, you can customize your companion characters in a number of different ways. Your companion characters can get their own equipment, that'll be an easy way to differentiate yourself and your companion character.

The Dark Side and the Light Side are also important to the experience. You're going to be making decisions that will affect the story, bringing you more to one side or the other. You can also try to go for more of a grey path like Qui-Gon Jin, a more balanced path. All those paths are acceptable, that will give you a different route for how you level up your character. Your character will develop along a different path depending on what choices you make. That is something that's different and I don't think has been done in an MMO.

We believe this concept might mean at one point in your story -- instead of visiting a centrally-located trainer NPC to either learn new abilities or to customize them -- you may need to utilize the Exploration pillar to discover new abilities, or make a critical, permanent choice to strengthen one ability over another. In this approach, completed missions and your dialogue choices all matter to your character "core class" abilities as you level up, and this implementation of ability customization would not be as trivial as a simple talent tree you can change on a whim or with little penalty.

To visually represent this concept, we created a chart using some familiar assumptions regarding permanent path choice level and approximate time played to level cap. It also includes a differentiation of some of the choices you'll make at various stages in your character's progression:


We speculated level 60 as the maximum level due to a few factors: the amount of class outfits shown for the Sith Warrior (58-60) and the level 50+ shown in the "Designing The Dark Side" video, plus it was a widely-used and therefore familiar level cap in both MMOs and RPGs around the time development for TOR began. Of course, we have to caveat all of the numerical representations we used with the fact that the game is still in development, and the pace of level-based experience gains are most likely undergoing constant tweaking as a result of testing feedback.

Frame from Designing The Darkside showing level 50. Credit: Ascendant

Evidence of what we think is level 20 to 40 decision-making was also seen in "Designing The Dark Side," as it revealed new Sith Inquisitor abilities featuring a restriction to usage with a double-bladed lightsaber. Therefore, we speculate this particular Sith Inquisitor made definitive choices regarding which abilities he sought out to acquire, and if he continued on this path of decision-making, he would eventually select the damage path for his character. We also have to note that the typical icon used to access a character's talent trees was distinctly missing from the user interface at level 30. Although this might seem a far-reaching conclusion, and the possibility definitely exists that such an icon wasn't implemented in the build used for the video for other reasons, we still need to keep in mind that we are shown (or in this case, not shown) such things for a purpose:


From official videos, we noticed at lower levels the experience (XP) gain was fast-paced, which should be a familiar leveling mechanic for experienced MMO players:

Level 10 SW Flashpoint start & finish (official video) vs. Level 4 SW cave killing (PAX 2009)

As we illustrated in our diagram above, we think the resulting branches of player choice will eventually diverge towards one path over another. The impact of the choices in relation to eventual path will also grow progressively stronger the closer in level you get to the point of actual path decision. We can then logically conclude the permanent choice of damage or group support is made at the approximate halfway point in terms of hours played, which is roughly two thirds of total numerical levels.

37 Comments
Comment by adelaar made on May 9th, 2010 at 5:48pm
In LoTRO, you have a "Trait" system. Each level of each trait is either increased by killing X mobs or visiting all the POIs in an area. I don't like this system. However, I like the the traits can be used to tweak my needs depending on what I'm up to.

What I can see by your speculations and the article on companions, is that the player build will have such "traits" earned by story-driven quests and companion selection and upgrades. So, for instance, if I'm a smuggler, my choice of the X2-C3 droid will improve MY ability to detect truthfulness if I choose the scoundrel line. Or, selecting the AR-34 Droid will give me some muscle if I choose the gunslinger line. Also, the decisions at key points in the game (for the smuggler, in this case) will naturally lean my abilities earned in the directions that my choices take me. For instance, if at a pivital point in a deal with a Hutt I can sweet talk my way out or blast my way out, the result will lean me towards scoudrel or gunslinger accordingly.

If this is all true, I am in favour of it. The only bad thing is this... in KOTOR, when you were playing a "good guy" and mistakingly chose something that gave you darkside points you had the ability to go back to a saved spot prior to the scene. You can't do that here. I hope the ramifications of these decision hubs are clear enough that they don't penalize you if you don't read the options right.

Anyway. Cool article. Keep em coming.
 
Comment by Sztanyi made on February 3rd, 2010 at 1:31pm
though i doubt this will happen, i thought that a way to avoid the whole talent respec issue, is that instead of gaining talents, you buy attachments.

So for example, if a BH wants a stronger flamethrower, or one that hits more enemies, or reaches longer, then he goes to his BH npc, and buys attachments to that flamethrower.

If a SI wnats to strengthen his/her force lightning, then they can buy specialized gloves that help increase their damage..

Just stuff like that. I think that it can work for every single type of talent or skill, but at the same time make sence when you respec, since in reality you aren't changing your character, you're just changing the gear he/she has on
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on February 5th, 2010 at 6:18pm
Itemization will most definitely make sense to Star Wars.
 
Comment by jfulmer made on February 2nd, 2010 at 4:21am
Very good read. This would be a very interesting skill implementation.
 
Comment by skyewauker made on February 1st, 2010 at 10:42am
I signed up just to be able to post this. I am posting because of the screenshot in the dissect video. It is NOT lvl 50, its LvL 10. The 1 and the 0 are visibly separated. The blur is constant on both numbers all the way down each number. Everyone keeps passing off 30, 40, and even 50 (50 is impossible as there is no bottom horizontal line that would make up a 5). Its none of these. I wish Bioware would confirm this so this wild rumor would be put to rest.
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on February 1st, 2010 at 1:34pm
It depends on which shot you are looking at in the video. ;)

If you like, I can add an image Ascendant put together for this article that shows the level 50 vs level 30 where it is clear.
 
Comment by josh made on February 1st, 2010 at 5:06pm
If you could. I would appreciate it!
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on February 2nd, 2010 at 7:49pm
Done.
 
Comment by josh made on February 4th, 2010 at 10:52am
I never troll, I just like to debate :)
At which minute of the video was the "lvl 50" screenshot from?
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on February 3rd, 2010 at 8:22pm
Actually, the shot on the left is from one of the shots of Emmanuel's monitor. The right is from a PvP shot.

This was done to show the spacing and curving in the font and this particular shot definitely isn't level 10.

The number displayed also doesn't have the curving needed to make a "3." The "5" is a bit more pronounced at 100% than 300%, but the pic would be too tiny for the article.

That is our opinion, and you are definitely entitled to your own -- just refrain from trolling.
 
Comment by Zenkei made on February 3rd, 2010 at 8:13pm
Sorry to disagree, but that 5 doesn't look like a 3, no matter which way you look at it.
 
Comment by josh made on February 3rd, 2010 at 6:32pm
To add another note to the novel I just typed, the hair style is exactly the same as well for both characters (the left and right matched to the ui_s pic).
 
Comment by josh made on February 3rd, 2010 at 6:30pm
hate to be playing devil's advocate, but its not lvl 50 in that screenshot. Its lvl 30.

The screenshot you link that says its a lvl 50 confirmation is just the two PvP screenshots of the two characters from the dissect screenshot you have in the dissecting the darkside article ("ui_s" is the picture name). It clearly shows them as both 30. The guy that linked this made one more blurry than the other. Just enough to give doubt, and tossed it up and the bait was swallowed.
 
Comment by Chris made on January 29th, 2010 at 2:03pm
Thank you for putting this together. I figure it was probably a "lets give them something, BW isn't go to" move, but I really appreciated it. I hope this isn't getting like SoE was in the beginning with all the fan hate, then everyone looking to alakazam instead of SoE's galaxies site. Then again, if Darth Hater is where I must go for information, so be it.
 
Comment by Xavier made on January 29th, 2010 at 11:50am
Nice article, I'm really looking forward to this game. I've never been one for playing alts but this game is going to give me a serious case of Alt-itis.
 
Comment by supression made on January 29th, 2010 at 11:49am
part of me really hopes for paths to be permanent because i always find myself switching from one specialization to the other in most games. Another part of me hopes its not permanent because balancing issues and nerfs suck. I do agree with you guys though and as always thank you for your quick and informative perspective.
 
Comment by Korven made on January 29th, 2010 at 11:40am
Amazing. Pure awesomeness.
 
Comment by bioni made on January 29th, 2010 at 10:19am
Awsome read you guys, thank so much :-)
 
Comment by Friday Update: Threat of made on January 29th, 2010 at 10:12am
[...] addition to the Threat of Peace update, we recently posted a new speculation article that might help scratch that Star Wars: The Old Republic info-itch.  Even with BioWare carefully [...]
 
Comment by Stignos made on January 29th, 2010 at 9:34am
All I can say is "WOW"!

You guys never cease to amaze me.

Keep up the good work Darth Hater, your making our wait much more enjoyable! :D
 
Comment by timskywalker made on January 29th, 2010 at 2:57am
nice work guys...

lets hope those 200+ hours are filled with action and asumness....(i am a little worried everything will be stretched out) i want it to be like KOTOR i still think it's teh best bioware game ever created..
 
Comment by timskywalker made on January 29th, 2010 at 2:57am
KOTOR 1-----i really hated 2
 
Comment by Aeli made on January 29th, 2010 at 1:19am
Theres two things BioWare have said with regards to character progression and roles that I haven't been able to reconcile yet. I think it was Blaine Christine who, in an interview, said that companion characters can be used for certain roles, but he also mentioned that characters would be able to switch to a certain set of abilities (in the case he was referring to, it was healing - "one giant medical unit") depending on the situation as well. This contrasts with the saying that 'choices will really matter', because to me, it sounds like we will earn abilities based on story choices, and will then be able to switch between sets of those abilities depending on what is required, presumably for group play primarily. The only way I can see 'choices really mattering' and 'switching between abilities that you earnt through story' (not exact quote) truly co-existing, without undermining each other, is if there is an unprecedented plethora of abilities, paths and trees for each class. However, I'm not too sure about that possibility, as we have already heard there will be 'two paths for each class'.

I agree with your speculations on the whole, by the way. Thanks for sharing. Even though I said a couple of days ago speculation was getting boring... we've/I've been doing it for many months after all... eventually tedium sets in, and generally I just want the official news and nothing else. Still, I guess we do need to have a bit of discussion, to fill time. ;)
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on January 29th, 2010 at 2:11am
I get asked that very question quite often, and here is the best way I can explain thoughts on it:

1. Companion characters are designed to offset your chosen play style (paraphrasing Jake Neri)

2. "Medical unit" - this is the tricky one from Daniel Erickson - we feel that even in support role, you need to do damage based on the limited viewing of formulas/abilities for force bar consumption & regen. Like you have healing abilities, and your companion has healing abilities. Put both together, you get one giant medical unit.

3. Based on prior dev statements as far back as 2008, we concluded the path choices are permanent. But we speculated that within those paths is a TON of variety trees that you can quickly respec whenever you needed/wanted to.

Hope that helps. :)
 
Comment by Macer made on January 29th, 2010 at 12:14am
I just don't see how this will favor casual players if there is some time minimum to reach a certain progression. The idea, itself, seems to be logically straight and fluid, but I am pondering what BioWare is going to do with those companions, in terms of progression as well. I like them, but I want to up my reputation by kicking ass without one.

The other thing that keeps me scratching is how much the character talents will be permanent to non-forced speccing. I know they said something about respecing, but I don't like the idea to make a choice that is necessary over a wide-selection that can give me more options to be good.

I am looking forward what their leveling system and path progression is going to be like. The future of pvp, pve, rvr, etc is awaiting for us. Beta.....must.....come....out!
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on January 29th, 2010 at 2:26am
Our speculation is: paths are permanent choice, the ton of trees in the paths are ones you respec quickly within depending on your activity and preference.
 
Comment by skyewauker made on February 1st, 2010 at 10:56am
I feel total opposite of this. I feel that you will be able to spec between say "scoundrel and gunslinger" as one of the developers directly answered this I thought. As the 2 paths were what was revealed , I felt as if his comment went directly with that reveal and not on a system we know nothing about. After all, that is Bioware's stand at this point (don't reveal until its 100% in game).
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on February 2nd, 2010 at 8:03pm
The developers never told us you could move between the path choices of "Scoundrel" and "Gunslinger." However, they said that once you made the choice, there was an ability to switch around things quickly within the path itself.

If you go back to read some of the earlier developer quotes from Daniel Erickson, then you see his emphasis on major, permanent choices and "no save button" in some of the things he says. We saw some similar themes in other developer quotes, which we explain in the other articles in this class design theory series.
 
Comment by anthony bonds made on February 3rd, 2010 at 1:43am
Is this "ability" you speak of similar to the "retrain" ability in Mass Effect 2 (located in the upgrade terminal under prototype)? I personally see TOR written all over Mass Effect 2. Of course they will be different, but judging from what the devs have said i believe they will be fairly similar as well. I guess Mass Effect 2 and SW:TOR would be analogous to brothers from the same parents. They don't look exactly alike, but there are alot of similar features they share.
 
Comment by cdstephens made on January 28th, 2010 at 11:22pm
It's important to consider the fact that your specialization choice will have little impact on the story itself.
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on January 29th, 2010 at 2:17am
Illusion of choice. ;)
 
Comment by cdstephens made on January 29th, 2010 at 4:27pm
Lol. Loved the article btw.
 
Comment by Dion Dublin made on January 28th, 2010 at 10:39pm
Amazing analysis.
 
Comment by Sleyo made on January 28th, 2010 at 10:18pm
Another great speculation article. Maybe the best so far, as far as explaining your points and the evidence behind them goes. I think the play time estimations might do the article a bit of a disservice though, because it's really hard to put numbers on that for an mmo, even when it's full realized and there is no speculation to it. You may say that the estimates are for an "average" person's leveling speed, but I just don't think you can attach a number too that idea of ""average" person's leveling speed"(not without a long while of hindsight after launch). With a game like this, where there is good chances of space combat and PvP during your leveling process, putting a time frame on getting to max level is just not a real grounded speculation in my opinion.

PS: I understand why the time frame is on the chart and that it is based on "familiar assumptions". I just think it might retract from the real purpose of the article.

Great work though again, you guys get better and better with each post it seems like, keep up the good work.

Sleyo
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on January 29th, 2010 at 2:16am
Game designers typically develop a formula based on average activity time to reach maximum level. This is usually how they calculate how to vary XP gains, then they tweak them around based on feedback.

The yield of XP to time spent doing activity A should be proportional to someone else doing activity B.

We could have used a flat percentage to show the halfway point, but we wanted to reconcile with past developer quotes that specified hours.

 
Comment by The BBP made on January 28th, 2010 at 10:11pm
I dig that you provide sound reasoning and support for your speculation. Great work.
 
Comment by Jatlantis made on January 28th, 2010 at 9:57pm
Yet another great article guys. Keep it up! =]