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2/22/10 12:00 AM -
Darth Hater Episode 23 - Oh Montana 
by sado
, posted February 22nd, 2010 at 12:00 AM
Episode 23 Oh Montana of the Darth Hater podcast is now up for stream and download. Check the bottom of the post for the stream and download links. Podcast notes after the jump.

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Intro
Justin Lowe - Sado - @realdarthhater
Joshua Ogborn - Sleeper - @dhsleeper
Ben Stiers - Dover - @doverbs

Segments
Fridays Update: Fan Friday

Dissection of Threat of Peace

Community Poll
Community Poll/Questions for this weeks Podcast
Should death have a penalty? (Ex armor/item degradation, exp loss, corpse runs, etc)

Yes (81%, 254 Votes)
No (19%, 61 Votes)

Total Voters: 315

Community Comments
Teek: XP loss was very annoying while grinding my Jedi in SWG, back in the holo-grind days. It also just felt like another mechanic to make me mindlessly grind. While I loved the pvp aspect of being hunted, the penalty seemed too harsh. Corpse runs are okay but invite corpse camping by other enemy players. I think i would be for item degradation and spawning at a med center. A med center debuff would be okay only if a healing smuggler or other could remove it with a skill. I also feel like item degradation could give crafters more to do. PvP should have no penalty, however if you spawn far away at a med center the time taken to get back into the fight might be penalty enough for the rest of the group.

Caliber: There should be a death penalty. Ideally, the penalty would not be overly harsh and would not involve losing items/EXP. Losing a trivial amount of money would be acceptable, but would hardly be much of a punishment by itself. Corpse runs combined with a rez at the med center (as seen in one of the game play videos for the Trooper where the Dev aggros too many mobs) is the best bet. Time isn't something you have to earn and there is an infinite amount of it. It would also extend the time the player plays, albeit very little. As others have mentioned, armor degradation is a must. It provides an additional reason to avoid death and provides a money sink.

Drudenfusz: Without a death penalty the game could be a bit more challenging without annoying casual gamers.

Jerlot: How about minimal death penalty like small item degradation but then also reward players for staying alive. So the more you play with out dying the more xp you get per kill or something like that.

Arcana: Ive personally always enjoyed games more where there was some sort of fear of death. Without that the games always feel less exciting to me. I think most people can agree that corpse runs are annoying and outdated and I personally don't like just cool down death penalties. I'm always somewhere in the middle on what the penalty should be. On the extreme side you have UO style loose all your stuff to the person who killed you and on the other side you have the more modern wow penalty thats not much more than a wait 5 minutes to get all your stats back. Id like to see something that people really don't want to loose without making them spend 30 minutes trying to get their stuff back. I personally feel my favorite, not that anyone likes them, penalty has to do with experience. I think that's something no one wants to loose, but wont put you out of the fight necessarily either. Now of course this leads to other issues if you want the same penalty associated with PvP. Now griefing can become a major issue. I don't think anyone has developed the perfect solution yet, so Id like to see something new. I want fear of death, without feeling like I should just quit the game because I lost all my stuff or 10 hours of work.

Flagg: I'm in favor of a Death Penalty for sure. Without consequence, the goal is meaningless.

Chet: Guild Wars style Death Penalty would be perfect. While in the flashpoint or other sort of quest/mission/explorable area, death should carry a loss of CURRENT progress, but not a permanent loss of PAST progress. This is key. Do not punish past progression, because of a mistake in current gameplay.

PC Talk Recap from Episode 21
Isavetheday: The one thing you guys did not really go into too much detail about was Directx 11. SWTOR is still a year away, and Directx 11 will be even more used because of the new nvidia cards. Since LOTR is soon (or already is, don't play the game) making a Directx 11 version, and the game is much older then SWTOR; I don't see why it would not be worth it for someone wanting to truely enjoy the game to not spend extra for Directx 11. Direxct 11 will give many new features on top of giving better high end performance, so it would make sense that SWTOR would come with a Directx 11 version on release or very soon after. Personally, I think it is stupid to buy the 200 series Nvidia cards right now instead of buying the 5000 ATI series or waiting for the 400 Nvidia series.

Reliant: Wow. Totally enjoyed you guys geekin out on computer specs. A key thing you missed is the importance of identifying bottlenecks. A computer is only as fast as its slowest component. Too many people waste money on high end components that provide no benefit due a bottleneck elsewhere in the system. Also, don't be afraid of open box components. Most electronics fail in the first couple months or after 3 years (and if it does fail, that gives you an excuse to upgrade again).

Boza: As someone who has been in the Mac world for the past 3 years, its good to hear some PC tech speak. I think it would be a great idea to create a thread/topic about specific hardware recommendations for those who are going to be building a computer for TOR, which because of the discussion of Macs from the release of TOR, will include myself. Maybe something like recommendations for minimum-spec, mid-spec, and max-spec with your complete & specific component recommendations. Just a thought I'm sure some (like myself) would really appreciate it.

9 Comments
Comment by dalak made on February 24th, 2010 at 10:07pm
Great points.... I had not considered the finite xp issue with a mostly quest based progression system. Obviously the penalty system has to meet the design of the game.
 
Comment by Raithnor made on February 24th, 2010 at 4:35pm
After listening to the podcast I have some honest questions for you guys:

Why does an MMORPG need a "Death Penalty"?

Would you want death penalties in Single-Player games? Would a death penalty have made the original KOTOR a better game?

Here's the problem I have with Death Penalties: If not done correctly it can cause a spiraling decline in the gaming experience. If you die, you've already lose whatever consumables you've lost in the encounter that lead to the character's death. To add a penalty on top of that doesn't improve your chances at completing the task.

Then there's the issue of PVP, where the more successful PVP titles generally are FPSs like TF2 who generally don't bother with death penalties. For the average PVE-player PVP can be an aggravating waste of time.

Then there's also the issue of TOR replacing KoTOR as a single-player game and using the MMO platform as a Co-Op/updatable enviroment.

I'm also not a fan of armor/weapon/equipment decay so much as "obsolesence". Unless you're at the endgame, ideally you should be constantly upgrading and recycling your equipment. Having to continually worry about your equipement breaking down on top of whatever penalties you incur if you lose isn't my idea of fun, unless a system is in place to repair the equipment instead of continually replacing it.

It will be interesting to see what Bioware comes up with, but I don't really buy into the notion that you have to be like UO/EQ/EVE/WOW to have a sucessful game.
 
Comment by Roflmywaffles made on February 23rd, 2010 at 8:53pm
Great pod cast as always. I really Like corpse runs more then xp lose or ending up in hospitals . I liked how WoW did death ,but I'm always looking for TOR to put it's own little twist on rezing.
 
Comment by Macer made on February 23rd, 2010 at 8:41pm
I careless about computer spec requirements. I just want the dam game to be out for testing so that I fix the bugs and worry less about buying a new computer, in which I will buy one in 300+ days from now. :D
 
Comment by Invader Mig made on February 23rd, 2010 at 12:41pm
I have to completely disagree with the notion that buying DX 11 cards is a waste. You guys keep mentioning $400 price tags on cards when that's for the hd 5870. That's one of there top of the line. You have the HD 5850 at $300 which is actually better than the combo card mentioned on this podcast purchased for $350.

No offense to which ever one of you that purchased it, but you mentioned DX11 not being mainstream yet. There's about 4 games out that use it and that's already a much faster start than DX10. Also that combo card has a gtx250 built in for dedicated physx. If anything physx, for all the time its been out is not mainstream and a complete waste.
If you're really that much of an nvidia fan you would be better off just getting yourself a regular GTX 275 or the one with double the ram.

Aslo the HD 5770 is the best price/performance card on the Market. It has the same performance of the 4870 stock with massive overclocking headroom which gives you 80 - 90% of the performance of a gtx 275 depending how well your card overclocks. I'm not an Ati fan boy by any means, and have only owned 1 ATI card in my life time, but I have to reinforce the point that buying any current nvidia card other than the really low end models is a complete waste of money.

Also you guys would do well to check around the internet for some leaked info on the new Nvidia line. Seems they have fallen flat on their face. While this is speculation, there seems to be many sources claiming that there will be even worse availability than there is for the HD 5970. These cards seem to have worse temps than the GTX 285's, and are even bigger than the HD 5870 which is already absurdly large. I think people are going to be in for a disappointment if they think the new Nvidia cards are going to start some price wars.

Again I really hope I'm wrong and this leaked info is nvidia feeding misinformation to the gamer community. But if even half the stuff I heard is true, gamers are going to suffer from overpriced Gpu's for a while longer.
 
Comment by Flagg made on February 23rd, 2010 at 11:14am
OOPS! Almost forgot.
Great podcast as usual fellas. Keep up the good work!
 
Comment by Flagg made on February 23rd, 2010 at 11:13am
I am more in favor of Armor degradation + Runback system. If you can influx player economics AND provide a reasonable handicap system for death without gimping the toon and forcing him to stand around the AH for 10 minutes, that would be awesome.

Glad you got the ram issue figured out. Thought it might be a bad ram stick.
 
Comment by Kayrien made on February 23rd, 2010 at 6:39am
Very interesting podcast.

It seems you guys dont have a single idea of what the death penalty should be there which will suit you most. Personally (I hope its not too bad to start the same descussion that was there at the poll topic :S ) i am prety discouraged by any item degradation and exp loss as it kills the sence of achievement. When you get a quest reward, for example, a helm i would like to believe that its not going to crack in two next time a patrolling DevilRancore catches me from behind.

The other idea you discussed about having a usable ability in case you do not die for some time. I quite enjoyed the sound of it in the begining but it woulld've been quite frustrating to have an ability you worked for 2 hours and that has a single charge. It would be really getting on my nrves on when to use this OP :)

And no penalty at all is just what you said guys. If there is nothing about death you should be afraid of, then what is the purpose of all this game at all. And SW universe. Everybody just settle down you are immortal anyway. but thats just me ofcourse

So again i guess ill stick to the corpse run or resurection sickness from Kolto tank :)

And again thank you guys for another great podcast :)
 
DH Team
Comment by Sleeper made on February 23rd, 2010 at 7:58am
I don't know what death penalty I want to see, but I want to avoid death because of ×blank× circumstances