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SWTOR News
3/15/10 4:01 AM -
LucasArts' Jake Neri on BioWare's James Ohlen, Endgame & Intertwining Pillars 
by emlaeh
, posted March 15th, 2010 at 4:01 AM
While talking with Jake Neri about the Trooper, we decided to use the opportunity to gather more information about Star Wars: The Old Republic. The LucasArts producer offered what limited insight he could into BioWare's James Ohlen and his recent comments on endgame.

First, we have to address James Ohlen. First off -- he is a total badass. He probably did more really amazing RPGs than anyone around, so he is allowed to say things like that. He is allowed to think outside of what us, the rest of us normal humans, are allowed to think about.
 
I think what he talking about is that we do have aspirations to do some really exciting things. One of the things that we want to try to do with our endgame is something that is very much Star Wars, so I don't know how you want to interpret that, but I think is what James is hinting. I don't think anyone has had an endgame quite like what Star Wars delivers.

The main point is that we have aspirations of doing something really exciting. We understand about what people want to do in an endgame, so we want to make sure that we fulfill that. We also want to make sure that we push the boundaries on what is possible and what is cool.

I didn't talk to James about the comment, but I know where he comes from and where he thinks. He thinks a little bit differently than everybody else. So I am guessing that it is going to be good. If James says it's going to be good, then it is going to be good. That is the stamp that you need.

Coupled with Ohlen's original statement of "doing something brand new that hasn't been done before in an MMO," Neri left us eagerly anticipating new information that might hint at TOR endgame. Being Darth Hater, we had to get a verification about Story intertwining with the rest of the pillars, as this concept is a huge driver of our speculation articles.

Yes. You know our big thing when we said that "story drives choice, and choice drives action?" That is a big, big deal for us. Keep in mind that what you're playing today has a long way to go development-wise, so you might not see some UI elements that may be to come, but certainly we are trying to make story work really well with progression. That is a goal for us.

We want you to be engaged in the story, we want players to have a reason to play the story. We know that some players don't want to play the story, so we need to figure that out. But story for us is the key differentiator and we want to make sure that drives really cool progression into our classes. The Trooper story is really exciting and people will want to play it... and yeah, the progression will be linked to that story.

These endgame clues and the confirmation of intertwined pillars should not only be a consolation to those in the community worried that Star Wars: The Old Republic will just be the "same old, same old," but that the creative minds at BioWare and LucasArts appear to be pushing the envelope of what makes sense in a Star Wars MMO.
 
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33 Comments
Comment by Fembo made on March 17th, 2010 at 5:25pm
Awesome article Emlaeh Thanks for posting

In regards to end game keeping the player base around. I think although having in-depth storylines will keep players around a lot longer, it still won't be more then say 60 days playtime max. 60days played time is a lot, but only a fraction of what many MMO accounts have built up over the years.
Endgame would be necessary to keep players around longer.
I would like to see Bioware continue to focus on story until release with a minimal endgame. But then to switch focus to endgame. I suppose that wouldn't be anything new for an MMO, except that TOR actually has story...
 
Comment by Zenkei made on March 17th, 2010 at 8:38pm
Any MMO that has failed to release with endgame content has failed. That is all I am saying.
 
Comment by Jaswar made on March 17th, 2010 at 2:37am
I am so pleased with this article. This MMO is gonna be unlike anything we have ever played. The grinders and gear only folks I believe are gonna be disapointed. Its just not gonna be a game like that.. yes there will be good gear , but I truly believe that you will care more about your personal journey and how your character evolves than a lousy pair of blue boots that you hopefully get after spending 4 plus hours in a boring raid .

To me building your toon is way better than any piece of gear one can get. I am so sick and tired of "the Gear" addiction that it just makes me cringe. It's also very refreshing to see they are gonna do raids like nothing that we have seen before. It would be great if the raids are set up that everyone receives some type of token or coin and at the end of the raid you go to a kiosk and decide what type of reward YOU want.

Whether it be a cool droid for your starship, to a pair of clothing that have zero stats.....just a cool piece of clothing to wear. Shoot or even a pair of r2d2 slippers lol. At least everyone is rewarded with what they want. It would be great if the players can just break that "gear addiction" mold.

For me that has been a huge turnoff in MMO land where gear becomes number one and your character is just a mold of that gear. I also believe that no one will be able to rush to endgame . It's gonna take along time to get there because many of us are gonna take our time and truly think our actions through when we make our choices and decisions along the way. To me thats huge because it makes me actually care more for my character then ever before. This will definitely slow down the traditional "lets get to the end as fast as possible players.. well thats NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on March 17th, 2010 at 7:40am
I'd rather have my abilities become more powerful, not necessarily my gear but we'll see. I'm pretty confident they'll get itemization and the risk/reward ratio balanced for endgame. However, I like visual identifiers and such... speaking to a "whoa! where did you get THAT?!?" I want to see what Killer-Achiever types can look forward to in game.

I'm more interested in speculation about how the raid encounters will be done, how the different classes work together in large groups, plus repeatable and/or expansive content.
 
Comment by Zenkei made on March 17th, 2010 at 7:17am
I personally enjoy the struggle of raiding. There is no feeling like the feeling of after months of wiping on a boss that you finally kill it. The euphoria is indescribable. I know there will be no single bosses, but that doesn't mean that there will be a lack of a challenge. Endgame is what keeps the majority of players around. When there isn't anything to do, watch as the server population starts to dwindle. I have seen that happen time and time again in periods of a lull of content.

You like story? Cool. You like to hang out with your friends and chill in an MMO? Cool. But please refrain from bashing those that prefer a different way of doing things.
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 17th, 2010 at 4:00am
I love the idea you have for a token you get for completing a raid. I always hated joining a new guild and not be able to roll on loot because there players that were there longer got fist choice. This way even if you don't get loot you don't feel like you didn't accomplish anything.

As for the rest of your comment , Amen brother LOL.
 
Comment by Zenkei made on March 17th, 2010 at 7:21am
I personally enjoy the struggle of raiding. There is no feeling like after months of wiping on a boss that you finally kill it. The euphoria is indescribable. I know there will be no single bosses, but that doesn't mean that there will be a lack of a challenge. Endgame is what keeps the majority of players around. When there isn't anything to do, watch as the server population starts to dwindle. I have seen that happen time and time again in periods of a lull of content.

Doing a raid to get a token that gets you random pieces of non-raid important gear? Sounds interesting... not something that I would particularly participate in (i.e. buy r2d2 slippers over an upgrade in gear), but whatever floats your boat. I would worry a little about the integrity of the raiding environment if Bioware decide to implement a system similar to World of Warcraft's badge system, except taken to an even greater of an extreme. Blizzard can be quoted saying that they felt that the extent the badge system went was too far and it should be toned down a bit. And before anyone argues, I understand what one game does might work in another/not work in another. However, that doesn't make the experiment conducted by another game irrelevant.

You like story? Cool. You like to hang out with your friends and chill in an MMO? Cool. But please refrain from bashing those that prefer a different way of doing things.
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 17th, 2010 at 1:54pm
I agree with your comment of raiding, but as for it keeps players around longer not so much, especially in swtor. However, in wow that is the case because leveling is so boring and repetitive.

Like I have stated before I love story, and how they are making each class have there own unique story it is going to be fun for me to level different classes. Which will keep me around for quite a long time

Im not saying story is going to be the best aspect of swtor by any means. I have just never seen any mmo put story together like we have seen so far in swtor. I am just overly excited about it and cant wait to be able to play the full game.Whether it be playing though my charcters story and making tough decisions. Or hitting end game and getting some great loot or even crafting my own. It seems it will have something for everyone, and so far swtor has everything I could ever want in a game.
 
Comment by RogueJedi86 made on March 15th, 2010 at 12:57pm
"We know that some players don't want to play the story, so we need to figure that out."

I hope they don't kowtow to the non-story people. I would hate to be playing a Trooper, run into another Trooper player, ask where he is on his class storyline, and get a "Oh I don't care about story, I skipped it" in response. Something like that would just take some of the air out of my balloon. But I've ranted about this in the 2 guild interviews' comments, so I'll stop while I'm ahead.
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on March 16th, 2010 at 3:42am
"But I've ranted about this in the 2 guild interviews' comments, so I'll stop while I'm ahead. "

This is not the place to rant or bag on people who want to play the same game but differently than how you want to play it.
 
Comment by r2d2arm made on March 15th, 2010 at 3:03pm
They have to respect different playing styles in order to cater to a bigger player-base.
 
Comment by RogueJedi86 made on March 15th, 2010 at 3:18pm
So should shooter games respect the people who like to play house like the Sims, by putting a house that you can decorate in them? Modern Warfare 2 is one of the best selling shooters/games of all time, and it only caters to one style. You can succeed by catering to specific styles. TOR is story-based, and I think they can succeed by focusing on that. Even if you don't get 10 million players, you can still succeed. LotRO never cracked 1 million, but I wouldn't call it a failure. It catered to the people who like story and it's doing well.
 
Comment by engrey made on March 15th, 2010 at 3:30pm
The Sims is a simulator of a world, an FPS only has one real play style, and that is to shoot other people. If you are talking about RTS games then that opens it a bit more. Some will play SC2 just for the single-player, others will play multi-player and like to turtle, others like to rush. The maps also have a novice mode which stops the rushing of low level units for a little while. Those are different play styles. MMOs have more play-styles then any other game. You have raiders, PvP fans, people who like to RP, Story people, those that play just to have fun, those that play competitively.

So to sit and almost deny a whole type of play-style just because you do not like it seems a little odd. I could care less about story, I have friends I play with and will play with and group. When I am not grouping sure I will engage in some aspects of the game (Flashpoints, other quests) but my overall story-arc does not matter to me. BioWare knows this, they know a lot of people will play because it is an MMO, or play for different features in the game. You like story, I hardly care about it, we have different opinions about the game and direction BioWare will take it. The best thing you can do is learn to accept that not everyone cares about the same aspects of an MMO.
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 15th, 2010 at 4:45pm
How can you say you don't care about story when you haven't even played it yet? The main reason for the different stories is it is not so boring when leveling an alt. You get a completely different experience. This game is based off of Kotor, but there making an MMO about it. I think the story aspect is a great idea to keep us interested for a long time.

They say they know some players don't want to play story, but that's just the minority who want to just do endgame content. There already catering to them by putting endgame content. Yet some people could care less about it, but the content is still there. I hoping they don't take certain aspects out of there story pillar just because a small group dose not want to play it.
 
Comment by engrey made on March 15th, 2010 at 4:55pm
I played ME for the shooter part of the game, not to have companions that got killed all of the time or some gender romances. WoW has story, never paid attention or bothered to read the quest text, that is just my play style. I have not played the game yet, that is correct, however I am the type of person who strives for end-game content. To maximize my character to its fullest potential, and to do some spread sheets and theory-craft on how to optimize more. Like story, my play-style is not everyones cup of Jawa Juice. However when you already know that everyones story will come to an end and everyone meets up for end-game is it that important? If everyone say on the Republic side ends up fighting the same enemies regardless of your overall-story arc do you think it has that big of an impact at that point?

I hardly play single-player games, I play MMOs, FPS, RTS, and other games for the community, for the competitive nature of them. I could care less about my squad in Bad Company 2, I skip right to the multi-player action of the game. As for WoW I leveled up and got to 60 (At the time) in about three months. That is average for most people, however I enjoyed killing things, completing quests (XP/Loot) and gaining new abilities then about the Kobolds I was taking candles from.
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 15th, 2010 at 6:52pm
Of course it matters, and were exactly did wow have story? Yes I tried to grind my characters level in wow as well because leveling in wow is freakin boring. The only fun part about wow is endgame/pvp. I love endgame content don't get me wrong, but I love everything else as well. This new story aspect that there trying to put in an MMO is there way of trying to make getting your character to that end level actually fun, and not some tedious task. Your story in this game will define your character. Your choices in the story will end up giving you certain powers. In my opinion those abilities will probably help with your end game content as well.

I play MMOS, FPS, RTS, RPG, I play everything. So if they want to put a button in there that says skip and use default options fine with me if that's what you want. Just as long it dose not mess with me enjoying my characters story.
 
Comment by RogueJedi86 made on March 15th, 2010 at 5:47pm
Without story, you'd just be playing as an off-white cube that bumps into other off-white cubes in a featureless expanse. Story and plot gives you setting and classes and races and weapons and armor and pretty much everything besides the numbers in the combat log. With that in mind, I don't see why you wouldn't at least appreciate story in some form.
 
Comment by engrey made on March 15th, 2010 at 7:11pm
The way I play MMOs is like a Michael Bay movie, explosions, battles, engagement, taking on bigger guys, and tons of people doing it all at once. What doesMichael Bay movies lack? A well put together story that finishes up nicely and explains why all of the Autobots and Decepticons are on Earth. People had a lot of questions at the end of the second movie, however it did well in the box-office. I do not need cinematics and JohnyCaptionWhocares to have such life breaking decisions to be made every second on every quest. Again think about it, if everyone arrives at end-game then will those "abilities" or other alignment choice really matter? Do you honestly think BioWare would make all of your abilities or talents matter that much when it comes to choice? What happens if you make some mistakes? Mess up? Can we not respec? Will alignments be permanent? I highly doubt it.
 
Comment by Zenkei made on March 15th, 2010 at 7:07pm
Once again, some people have one play style and other people have another. I understand that you like story and that is fantastic, there is something for you in TOR. However, I find that I don't particularly like story all that much and that is fine too, there is something in TOR for me as well. Just because you think story is important doesn't mean that everyone else thinks that it is too. It is probably best if you keep that in mind.
 
Comment by Invader Mig made on March 15th, 2010 at 8:15pm
I enjoy Star Wars lore, but I think I have to go with engrey and Zenkei on this one. I'm one of those people who is not all that concerned with story. I'm not much of an rpger and when it comes to MMO's, I'm looking to make my character perform as well as it possibly can. For me story is just a way to make leveling more interesting, but the story itself ranks very low on the list of reasons I want to play this game. Group questing, raiding and PvP is what I'm concerned with. I don't see myself skipping over anything though.
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 15th, 2010 at 10:45pm
You just said your not much of an RPGer well this is a MMORPG.

Well since that is 2 people on the DH team that dose not like story is there anyone who is on the DH team that dose?
 
DH Team
Comment by emlaeh made on March 16th, 2010 at 3:40am
DH is like a bag of mixed nuts when it comes to play styles.

 
Comment by Korrick made on March 16th, 2010 at 5:08am
good to know
 
Comment by Invader Mig made on March 15th, 2010 at 11:55pm
What I should have said is Single player RPGer, but I thought that was implied. I'm not sure if you are trying to imply that MMORPGs and SPRPGs are similar.
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 16th, 2010 at 1:03am
RPG=Role Playing Game
MMORPG=Massively Multiplayer online Role playing game

The gap between rpgs and mmorpgs are getting smaller and smaller. Just look at fable2 you can play your adventure with a friend although your friend was just a henchman it was primarly a RPG. In fable 3 they said recently that you will be able to put both of you actual charcters into a world and play together.

My point is they are both RPGs which implies that there is story. Finally something that bioware is doing right by the look of it. I get that you dont like story. But seeing as this is an MMORPG and the way bioware is making it I dont see away around it unless they put a skip all cut scenes option in the game which I have no problem with.

I just dont want them to skip out on the story just because a few dont want it. I have loved every story Bioware has put out. I played Kotor over 10 times and selected every option and every outcome. Mass Effect 2 had an awesome story and I just dont see how you can't appreciate it.
 
Comment by Zenkei made on March 16th, 2010 at 8:59am
With how many times that Bioware has talked about story and how it is important to them in the development of their game, I seriously doubt a few people wanting a button that allows them to skip dialogue will negatively impact your experience.

By saying that I don't like story, I mean that I care more about how each quest impacts my character mathematically. Does one quest result in an option to get this ability or this ability and how does that improve my character's dps/healing/tanking? That is the type of question that I ask myself before I would make a decision on the story. I don't care about RPing or how I personally would have made that decision, I care about the improvement of my character over story.

The different between MMORPGs and RPGs are the scale on which they are built. While RPGs are made for a specific audience, MMORPGs seek to bring in a much larger audience and as such have to have many available play styles for people to choose from. One play style is not better than other, it is simply different.

And while that might be the case and this is my both my opinion and option, I in no way think that it should be the only opinion or option. People have different play styles and different things that they want to get out of the game. The best part of Bioware seems to be the inclusion of those considered to be in the minority, whether or not they actually are is irrelevant. Bioware is seeking to include as many people in their game as possible and I am appreciative of their efforts in such a regard.
 
Comment by Caliber made on March 16th, 2010 at 12:37pm
I agree with this statement.

I hate the polarization that occurs in these types of debates, especially when the topic doesn't affect other players. It's not a binary choice and it doesn't matter to anyone outside of the player making the decision. I am glad Bioware seems to realize these points.

There is no evidence that Bioware has forsaken the story in favor of the other play-styles. So why not be delighted that others will find something of interest in this game and make it successful?
 
Comment by Strap made on March 20th, 2010 at 9:50pm
Polarization is never very nice and rarely helpful but you are wrong about the affect on other players.

The first problem is the scope of the MMO. The more playstyles an MMO aims to cater for then the larger the scope of the game, and out of control scope can delay an MMO repeatedly and even ruin an MMO. I do not want ToR to be delayed until 2012, for example, and I'm sure nobody else does either.

The second problem is what happens where there is a conflict in development between what is in the interests of the skip quest text min/maxers and what is in the interest of the story lovers. For example, a button to reset the aspects of your character arrived at through story was mentioned. This devalues the role of story but keeps min/maxers happy.

The third problem is when you group. The more like-minded a community is the more likely PUGs will be remotely enjoyable. How many times have I grouped with others in MMOs and had to charge through an instance, not able to take the time to read text or explore? Lots. To the extent that I'm reluctant to group anymore.

Personally I feel that the MMO genre has lost the RPG element and that Bioware rightly aims to emphasise story in a bid to do things just a little differently and bring back the RPG in mmorpg. Good on them. I hope to be in a community that enjoys the lore of Star Wars and has an appetite for story.

I was dissapointed then to read the replies from members of the DH team. I'm always just a little embarrassed for someone when I read blunt admissions of how meaningless the story or the lore is to a person and how they skip quest text completely. It just sounds like that person lacks the imagination to enjoy a good fantasy setting, which Star Wars is a great example of. If that is truly the case, what on earth attracts you to Bioware and SW:ToR to the extent that you are on the DH team?
 
Comment by chronium made on March 15th, 2010 at 8:31am
Hmm the only endgame that I can think of that's Star Warsy is huge battles space and ground with hundreds of NPC's on both sides.
 
Comment by Elkesai made on March 15th, 2010 at 5:04pm
Either that, or a one-on-one duel.
 
Comment by Aeli made on March 15th, 2010 at 8:01am
Thanks for these articles boys and girls.

I'm really glad at the comments on end-game. I like the 'classic system', but have always felt like there should be something more than the 'gear-grind treadmill' to keep the feeling of progression after hitting a level cap.

The only slightly depressing thing is when the devs. keep alluding to the fact that theres 'a lot of development work still to be done'. I don't know much about the technical side of making games, but given how most games take several years to develop, those comments make me feel like the game won't be ready by Spring 2011. At the end of the day I would rather have a polished game, though, so I'll agree with the mantra of 'its done when its done', that companies like Blizzard and BioWare seem to allign with.
 
Comment by r2d2arm made on March 15th, 2010 at 3:10pm
I noticed the same comment about more work to be done. I feel this refers more towards the interface, some combat aspects, end-game type systems, factions (some PvP and possible contested planets are known), professions, and space combat. From what I've read via these articles and the dev blogs, the planets and classes have been fleshed out rather well already, along with the quests associated with them. As long as the finished product isn't rushed, I'm not too worried about when it is released.
 
Comment by Lansan made on March 15th, 2010 at 5:40am
Small typo in the beginning - Jame Ohlen - James
Otherwise, great :)