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SWTOR News
3/21/10 4:11 PM -
Damion Schubert on Balancing Group & Solo XP 
by Zenkei
, posted March 21st, 2010 at 4:11 PM
A post from Star Wars: The Old Republic's Damion Schubert gave some insight on balancing XP gains for solo and group players:

We increase the XP pool for each group member in it, and then divide that pool. I don't have the number in front of me, but its something we'll be tweaking as we play anyway.

The general gist is that we want to reward grouping, but not so much that grouping is the only way to play the game (something that is very easy to do if you tilt the table too much, and then balance the levelling curve to that rate gain). That being said, as some have mentioned, grouping with another person increases your killing efficiency and reduces your risk of death substantially, to the degree that being in a group of two is vastly more efficient than 2X killing efficiency (this is like most MMOs). Still, you want to reward grouping enough to help ensure that you overcome the friction associated with grouping (finding groupmates, getting to them, tolerating idiots, etc).

Other notes:

Yes, we have anti-twink measures. Yes, high level players get shut out if they kill creatures too far below them. This is a fine line - you want to let high level players help their new friends, but you really don't want high level players hunting in low level areas, as that can be disruptive to the lowbies.
Yes, compared to other MMOs, we give you more XP for completing quests and less for killing creatures. These numbers will also likely be continually tweaked.
Yes, harder things give more experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavior
Group of 5 level 10's killing a level 10 mob: 100 xp each
Group of 3 level 10's killing a level 10 mob: 100 xp each
Solo person of level 10 killing a level 10 mob: 100 xp

no one gets screwed, no one is forced to group and everyone is happy.

Balancing it's not that easy. Instead, you need to look at XP gain per hour. A group of 3 can kill (let's say) 5X the creatures than a solo player can in an hour, which means that if you give everyone the full XP value, grouping is 5X() more efficient than soloing. If you balance the curve to that, the solo player gets screwed.

In our curve, we push that towards being closer to 2-3X. Still a significant advantage, but the grouper has to deal with all of the inertia of forming a group.
 
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28 Comments
Comment by Davidinator made on March 24th, 2010 at 7:56pm
This is what they need to do. Encourage grouping, but not force it. Instead of making the content group-focused and then trying to make it soloable, they're making it soloable first and then making groups a viable option. It's smart - even if groups WERE 5x as efficient, you could still solo if you wanted to because nothing is stopping you. If you did want to give in and get a group, there'd be plenty of people doing it because it's 5x as efficient.
 
Comment by Xavior made on March 22nd, 2010 at 9:06pm
lol my post made it to darth hater with the GM's help.
 
Comment by Sundeki made on March 22nd, 2010 at 4:02pm
I really hope this works properly. I like going solo, and if this doesnt work, then i will be screwed.
 
Comment by neth made on March 22nd, 2010 at 2:52pm
"you really don't want high level players hunting in low level areas"

I hope they still allow ganking.
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 22nd, 2010 at 3:14pm
Im thinking there gonna do it like wow were the opposite faction cant attack you in your zone unless you attack first. Now after you hit the contested planets then let the ganking begin.
 
Comment by jeyhu made on March 22nd, 2010 at 7:53pm
I don't mind the ganking crap as long as they have some sort of system in place to help protect the newbies. The max level character mindlessly killing lower level players shouldn't get any XP (if they have it for pvp kills), should not count the death as a PvP kill (again if that's included) and after "harassing" the newbies long enough should end up on the Bounty Hunter terminals so a Player Bounty Hunter can come take them out (if a Bounty System is in place)
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 23rd, 2010 at 2:03am
I kind of like that idea with the bounty system, there have been many times when I was trying to level a character and kept getting ganked repeatedly for new good reason. This idea would stop people from corpse camping.
 
Comment by RogueJedi86 made on March 22nd, 2010 at 11:10pm
A bounty system would be interesting, but they'd have to open it up to a Republic class too, for cases of Imps ganking low level Reps. I'd suggest Trooper for that, doing ordered assassinations from the Chancellor or something. Troopers seem the best Republic class to take out hits, moreso than Smuggler(maybe) and the Jedi.
 
Comment by sgtsavage made on March 23rd, 2010 at 1:58pm
They way I see it if it was like the trooper in the case of bounites is that the trooper would be like hired "police" or "FBI" agents to take down baddies, they have an implied "goodness" to their bounties because the law backs them up and they are hired tools of the government so action is justified. On the other hand, Bounty Hunters have no real laws to back them up they are act on credits and incentives. Kinda like government spehere vs. private sphere hahaha. That be sweet not gonna lie.
 
Comment by Loekii made on March 21st, 2010 at 10:50pm
Has there been any mention of how XP is affected with and without a companion? Also curious if they will be following the standard Content Level determining the Loot table set up.
 
Comment by Korrick made on March 22nd, 2010 at 3:05pm
Since everyone has a companion I don't think its going to affect your xp.
 
Comment by ValiceKohn made on March 21st, 2010 at 9:55pm
It appears that Bioware is really starting to open up with regards to what there members can/are saying on the forums. I love it.
 
Comment by Loekii made on March 21st, 2010 at 10:52pm
While I understand a 'hands off' approach, it is appreciated when the staff is able to interact with the community and participate in discussions. Presents a more friendly atmosphere -- hanging out in the kitchen making small talk, than having us remain outside until dinner is ready, imo.
 
Comment by Evolancer made on March 21st, 2010 at 8:52pm
'Yes, compared to other MMOs, we give you more XP for completing quests and less for killing creatures'
I guess the grinding won't be a severe option. It was expected as the stry, thus questing is favoured, but, the ones who will want to grind for some reason won't be well rewarded. At least, this is how I interpret these words.
 
Comment by Bzrk made on March 22nd, 2010 at 4:05am
Allods Online also does this. That game cannot be compared to SWTOR, but the essence is the same. It makes Story more important because you need to do quests in order to level properly. And because SWTOR has that animated conversation and story thing, this will only suit the game better.
 
Comment by Revix2k9 made on March 22nd, 2010 at 5:34am
no what allods does is give you fatigue which stops hardcore players from playing all day , which is i why i quit i got lvl 20 scout. also fact they destroyed decent game over at rus side.
 
Comment by Bzrk made on March 22nd, 2010 at 6:27am
That's a completely different aspect of the game you adress there. The fatigue system has nothing to do with getting more XP when questing instead of grinding.
 
Comment by RogueJedi86 made on March 21st, 2010 at 9:47pm
The thing about more xp for quests than kills reminds me a little of what Mass Effect 2 did, removing xp for kills outright and instead only giving xp for each quest. It'd be an interesting experiment to try. At the least, it'd kill grinding and force everyone to quest and experience the story that BioWare is pushing so strongly. They have been talking about wanting to get people who don't care for story to at least give them a shot. But it's much safer for them to leave xp for kills too.
 
Comment by CZEKing made on March 21st, 2010 at 8:59pm
Well he didn't really say how "not well" they wont be rewarded. I suspect it will still allow grinding, just not in such scale as in other mmo's

By the way, this kinda answer my question I haven't had chance to ask. In KotOR series (and basically all games) when I had a choice I always tried to pick the one that offers the most xp outcome (often the most mobs to kill). In that some time ago presented flashpoint video you could kill cpt or let him live...killing him led to more mobs (more xp ?) and letting him live less mobs...how will be this dealt with ?
 
Comment by dege made on March 22nd, 2010 at 12:21pm
In KotOR the xp was more valuable because there was a limited amount of mobs too kill.
In SW:ToR you can chose the story options you want based on how you play your character. If you got less mobs to kill from your choise you probably got time to kill a few extra mobs elsewhere.
 
Comment by CZEKing made on March 22nd, 2010 at 6:38pm
I dont really need to have opportunity to kill other mobs somewhere else, just make every possible way (choice) same-xp-awarded, I dont want to have my light choices being punished because I chose not to fight .for example:
1) be rude, kill 10 mobs, get 100xp for each one = 1000 exp overall
2) be nice, avoid fighting, get 1000 xp for diplomatic solution (ofc it shouldnt be just talking, you should avoid that fight by doing something..)
 
Comment by Macer made on March 21st, 2010 at 8:07pm
The anti-twink comment might have to do with people who has a maxed out character and then create an alternative to grind through the content easily by means of multi-boxing, hiring friends to grind through the quest process and getting easy loot in low level dungeons.

I am thinking by having limitations or a level range will prevent twinks all together and force them to group with their respectable levels for dungeon runs or other quests, where their exp can be severely diminished if "cheated" through the system. After all, BioWare wants people to play each class without needing to have higher mains to cheat your way through, even though some people do it on purpose to have the upper advantage and try to obliterate the competition early in the game. I believe the balance would have to come down to letting everyone have a chance to run through their characters to max level without seeing dedicated people creating alts, etc by cheating their way through while others do it solo or grouping in the legitimate way.
 
Comment by Caliber made on March 21st, 2010 at 7:17pm
"Yes, we have anti-twink measures. Yes, high level players get shut out if they kill creatures too far below them."

I wonder what they mean by "anti-twink measures." Schubert seems to be alluding to PvP because the only problem with twinks in PvE (since they avoid XP like the plague once geared) is when people are trying to obtain gear.

Also, I hope that the later part of the quote is only referring to XP and not loot.
 
Comment by PhoR11 made on March 21st, 2010 at 5:48pm
"This is a fine line - you want to let high level players help their new friends, but you really don't want high level players hunting in low level areas, as that can be disruptive to the lowbies."

I wonder if they have considered any mechanics similar to FFXI's level sync system.
That system turned out to be incredibly successful for FFXI.
 
Comment by Baghwan made on March 21st, 2010 at 10:47pm
Sounds the same as EQ2's mentoring

http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Mentoring
 
Comment by Hewo made on March 21st, 2010 at 6:00pm
Hmm, not familiar with these mechanics. Can you elaborate or provide a link to this? Curious to see what they do.
 
Comment by RogueJedi86 made on March 21st, 2010 at 6:04pm
In a nutshell, high level players group with low level players, and sync their levels down to the lower member's level. Their gear and abilities also scale down to match the lower level. Any xp they gain while synced down counts towards their original, non-synced level (resulting in possibly being leveled up when you un-sync). It really helped low-levels in FFXI at time when everyone was at level cap or very close. There's more to it than that, but that's the jist.
 
Comment by r2d2arm made on March 21st, 2010 at 5:15pm
Commented a little bit on this thread earlier. Glad to hear about Bioware's philosophy towards group exp. Really don't know how the composition of the group will affect experience. I suggested a weighted percentage based on level or total exp.